David Hicks: A Living, Breathing Example Of Humane American Values
According to a most credible compilation of data - my general impression - here are this quarter's enduring hot news topics.
Climate change. Water scarcity. WorkChoices. David Hicks.
They're so hot that a report on even a relatively insignificant development in any one of these unfolding stories is likely to find itself leading a print, radio or television news bulletin.
Certainly, many believe the science that built the overloaded climate change bandwagon is faulty, that the current water scarcity issue is a cyclical matter which will rectify itself given time and the implementation of WorkChoices will be beneficial for the Australian economy.
Of course, the opposing side argues conversely and thus the debate rolls on. Climate change, water scarcity and the effects of WorkChoices are worth debating - and hence genuinely newsworthy items. The public has a strong interest in being made aware of the facts of these matters, so that the debate will continue and hopefully a satisfactory outcome can be achieved. Of course, this relies upon these developments being impartially reported - a necessary luxury we often do without - though that's a topic for another post.
The alert reader will have noticed David Hicks's omission from the above list. What? His plight cannot be overlooked, surely? Many contend that the public should be deeply concerned about the nature of the treatment dished out to Hicks, lest it befall them or their children. That David Hicks is the victim of a grave miscarriage of justice is beyond question for many, and if one accepts this, then certainly his predicament is entirely worthy of the overwhelming media coverage his case receives.
However, I spurn the assumption of David Hicks's victimhood, and thus his case's media notoriety. There are a number of mitigating circumstances that are not being considered when judging the treatment of Hicks. When they - along with Hicks's current status - are pondered, I contend that Hicks is being treated extremely well.
If Hicks was a civilian who had committed a crime in that capacity, then my voice would join those loudly decrying a travesty of justice whereby someone could be held without charge for several years by a foreign nation supposedly bound by the rule of law. However, Hicks was not a civilian. He was a soldier - an Australian-born soldier - fighting under the flag of the Taliban, who were in turn fighting a UN-sponsored coalition force which included Australia. Whether he was actively taking part in a battle when apprehended is irrelevant. He swelled the ranks of an enemy ranged against the forces of his birth country. He is at least a traitor by the conventional definition.
It is also most important to consider that, like all Taliban soldiers, he was not wearing a uniform when captured - he had no identifiable command. This is a very important distinction. If a nation or coalition of nations captures one of its citizens on the battlefield manning the ranks of its opponent and is without identifiable command, it marks that individual as a spy. Up until the recent Afghan campaign, standard operating procedure in these (very rare) circumstances has been that the accused appears before a summary court martial in situ, to face almost certain execution - usually by a military firing squad. Now Hicks was probably not a spy. But it is military convention to assume that fellow countrymen caught behind enemy lines in mufti have been spying for the enemy. Those who think Guantanamo is rough justice should consider how Hicks would have been treated if he were caught by the Allies in similar circumstances in Nazi Germany.
In this context, the Guantanamo Bay facility and the incarceration - as opposed to speedy execution - of David Hicks takes on an entirely new light. Of course, it is not ideal that one should wait five years or more for a trial. But Hicks is not facing an ordinary trial - on the contrary, he is a most unlikely legal pioneer. As mentioned, those of his kind captured in the past were executed in situ. However, the Americans have shunned this rather bloody (but hitherto universally practiced) convention in the case of Hicks, opting to develop an entirely new process to try such extraordinary cases. This is a distinctly tricky task. English common law, the bedrock of the Anglospheric legal systems, evolved over hundreds of years. Compare with the construction of this new justice system for people like Hicks - unsurprisingly still a 'work in progress' after five years. Furthermore, this process - and thus Hicks's pre-trial detention - has been greatly lengthened by (later overturned) judicial obstructions in US civilian courts, filed by those purporting to support Guantanamo inmates like Hicks. Considering these circumstances, is it surprising that it has taken so long for Hicks to come to trial?
Many will wonder why it's necessary to construct this whole new legal edifice to try people like Hicks. Why not subject him to the rigours of a civilian court? Simply, he does not qualify for access to civilian courts because he was not a civilian when he allegedly committed the crimes he's accused of. Hicks was caught on the battlefield as an enemy combatant. He should be tried by the standards of martial law. There is a clear legal distinction between civilian and martial law - a distinction as clear as that of civil and criminal standards of evidence. And this is as it should be; the 'fog of war' means that witnesses of crimes committed on the battlefield are frequently deceased or difficult to locate. When they are available to give evidence, their testimonies are extremely susceptible to cross-examination, because of the confusion of warfare. A civilian criminal court hearing a case like Hicks's would have next to no chance of establishing guilt 'beyond reasonable doubt' due to the extraordinary nature of an active battlefield. Yet crimes are committed in theatres of war - and they should be prosected as effectively as possible. Far greater emphasis must be placed on circumstantial evidence. For example, to be exonerated, Our David would need an extremely good answer to a question like 'Mr Hicks, why were you captured on the wrong side of the frontline, apparently guarding a Taliban tank?'
So, when comparing the treatment of David Hicks to the treatment of individuals caught in similar circumstances in previous wars, one arrives at the conclusion that his imprisonment is a shining example of humane behaviour on the part of the Americans. Those calling for an end to the formulation of military tribunals to try defendants like Hicks should be careful what they wish for. Looking forward, wars will be fought and traitors will be captured by their countrymen or their countrymen's allies. If this attempt by the Americans to try extraordinary defendants like Hicks using a formal military tribunal fails, the ad hoc variant will be reverted to. It's much less messy and such justice would easily pass unnoticed. Is this preferable?
I would argue that it is absolutely not. I value individual human life greatly. I even value the life of an immoral moron like Hicks, who was happy to ingratiate himself with men who think it godly to forbid female education and stone their "wayward" sisters, throw homosexuals off of tall buildings, dynamite the ancient relics of a "heretical" religion and ban music and sport. I'd rather Hicks in GITMO - awaiting what will likely be an imperfect and unprecedented trial - than his blindfolded, bullet-ridden body hidden in an unmarked grave somewhere in Afghanistan.
No! cry the his supporters. The other alternative is to simply let David go free - he has suffered enough. It's quite certain that our American allies would accede to such a request from the Australian government, however if he were to come back to Australia, it is well known that he cannot be charged with any offence. He would not face justice. Hicks's actions in Afghanistan were not illegal under Australian law when he committed them - although they would be if committed today. Consider the recollection of Hicks's activities in Afghanistan as told in this sympathetic 4 Corners piece. The Australian Federal Police interview records Hicks saying
And Hicks certainly does not deserve freedom for a good long spell. Far from being released back into Australian society, Hicks richly deserves just and lengthy punishment if he is found guilty of fighting for the Taliban. In light of the realisation that Hicks might not be a very good man who allied himself with a truly evil regime, some on the Left are starting to wake up to fact that he could well be a bastard. By his own admission, Dave's been a bad, bad boy. Sorry - man. He was 26 at the time of his capture, so the 'wilful naive youth' defence many are attempting to field on his behalf falls somewhat short. That aside, the aforementioned lefties, claim that defending bastards against a lack of due process is one of the least gratifying but most necessary tasks of anyone concerned for the cause of liberty. This is bunk because, as mentioned above, there is no established due process for this kind of case beyond summary court martial and execution in situ.
Not that this fact will matter a tinker's cuss to the supporters of Mr Hicks; but then facts have never stemmed the tide of psuedo-righteousness coming from a Leftist in full Voltairean preach-mode. "He's a bastard but he still has rights" is catching on, however it rings pretty hollow to my cynical ears. Notwithstanding the above-argued fact that his current status is most accurately described as "extralegal", I don't think the Left cares at all about Hicks's crimes against the Australian and Afghani people. I believe they love him because he's a most useful weapon to use against their bitterest political enemies. And the Australian Labor Party can't get enough of Hicks for the same reason - he's becoming increasingly handy as a political wedge. The man is the favoured cause célèbre of the left and the ALP.
Now, I could be completely wrong - perhaps the Left and others aren't using Hicks as a political marionette. Perhaps they are genuinely concerned about a fair process for him. The best way to discover what the Left and others really think of Hicks will be evident when he returns to these shores, and that may not be so far away if the issue continues to gain traction here. If many of those demanding "Justice for David" actually deeply disapprove of his decision to enlist in the military of a fascist, barbaric regime that was also fighting against his own countrymen, I'm assuming a huge 'Welcome Home David' crowd won't assemble at the airport to greet such an immoral individual. And he won't be invited as a guest-of-honour speaker at various Green-Left, anti-globalisation and anti-war rallies around the country, surely. And the book he'll co-write detailing his ordeal and martyrdom will not shoot to the top of the bestseller lists, right? And there'll be no place on the Greens senate ticket for David Hicks; 7th century cult-admirer, supporter of female stoning, Taliban-boosting David Hicks?
We shall see.
Climate change. Water scarcity. WorkChoices. David Hicks.
They're so hot that a report on even a relatively insignificant development in any one of these unfolding stories is likely to find itself leading a print, radio or television news bulletin.
Certainly, many believe the science that built the overloaded climate change bandwagon is faulty, that the current water scarcity issue is a cyclical matter which will rectify itself given time and the implementation of WorkChoices will be beneficial for the Australian economy.
Of course, the opposing side argues conversely and thus the debate rolls on. Climate change, water scarcity and the effects of WorkChoices are worth debating - and hence genuinely newsworthy items. The public has a strong interest in being made aware of the facts of these matters, so that the debate will continue and hopefully a satisfactory outcome can be achieved. Of course, this relies upon these developments being impartially reported - a necessary luxury we often do without - though that's a topic for another post.
The alert reader will have noticed David Hicks's omission from the above list. What? His plight cannot be overlooked, surely? Many contend that the public should be deeply concerned about the nature of the treatment dished out to Hicks, lest it befall them or their children. That David Hicks is the victim of a grave miscarriage of justice is beyond question for many, and if one accepts this, then certainly his predicament is entirely worthy of the overwhelming media coverage his case receives.
However, I spurn the assumption of David Hicks's victimhood, and thus his case's media notoriety. There are a number of mitigating circumstances that are not being considered when judging the treatment of Hicks. When they - along with Hicks's current status - are pondered, I contend that Hicks is being treated extremely well.
If Hicks was a civilian who had committed a crime in that capacity, then my voice would join those loudly decrying a travesty of justice whereby someone could be held without charge for several years by a foreign nation supposedly bound by the rule of law. However, Hicks was not a civilian. He was a soldier - an Australian-born soldier - fighting under the flag of the Taliban, who were in turn fighting a UN-sponsored coalition force which included Australia. Whether he was actively taking part in a battle when apprehended is irrelevant. He swelled the ranks of an enemy ranged against the forces of his birth country. He is at least a traitor by the conventional definition.
It is also most important to consider that, like all Taliban soldiers, he was not wearing a uniform when captured - he had no identifiable command. This is a very important distinction. If a nation or coalition of nations captures one of its citizens on the battlefield manning the ranks of its opponent and is without identifiable command, it marks that individual as a spy. Up until the recent Afghan campaign, standard operating procedure in these (very rare) circumstances has been that the accused appears before a summary court martial in situ, to face almost certain execution - usually by a military firing squad. Now Hicks was probably not a spy. But it is military convention to assume that fellow countrymen caught behind enemy lines in mufti have been spying for the enemy. Those who think Guantanamo is rough justice should consider how Hicks would have been treated if he were caught by the Allies in similar circumstances in Nazi Germany.
In this context, the Guantanamo Bay facility and the incarceration - as opposed to speedy execution - of David Hicks takes on an entirely new light. Of course, it is not ideal that one should wait five years or more for a trial. But Hicks is not facing an ordinary trial - on the contrary, he is a most unlikely legal pioneer. As mentioned, those of his kind captured in the past were executed in situ. However, the Americans have shunned this rather bloody (but hitherto universally practiced) convention in the case of Hicks, opting to develop an entirely new process to try such extraordinary cases. This is a distinctly tricky task. English common law, the bedrock of the Anglospheric legal systems, evolved over hundreds of years. Compare with the construction of this new justice system for people like Hicks - unsurprisingly still a 'work in progress' after five years. Furthermore, this process - and thus Hicks's pre-trial detention - has been greatly lengthened by (later overturned) judicial obstructions in US civilian courts, filed by those purporting to support Guantanamo inmates like Hicks. Considering these circumstances, is it surprising that it has taken so long for Hicks to come to trial?
Many will wonder why it's necessary to construct this whole new legal edifice to try people like Hicks. Why not subject him to the rigours of a civilian court? Simply, he does not qualify for access to civilian courts because he was not a civilian when he allegedly committed the crimes he's accused of. Hicks was caught on the battlefield as an enemy combatant. He should be tried by the standards of martial law. There is a clear legal distinction between civilian and martial law - a distinction as clear as that of civil and criminal standards of evidence. And this is as it should be; the 'fog of war' means that witnesses of crimes committed on the battlefield are frequently deceased or difficult to locate. When they are available to give evidence, their testimonies are extremely susceptible to cross-examination, because of the confusion of warfare. A civilian criminal court hearing a case like Hicks's would have next to no chance of establishing guilt 'beyond reasonable doubt' due to the extraordinary nature of an active battlefield. Yet crimes are committed in theatres of war - and they should be prosected as effectively as possible. Far greater emphasis must be placed on circumstantial evidence. For example, to be exonerated, Our David would need an extremely good answer to a question like 'Mr Hicks, why were you captured on the wrong side of the frontline, apparently guarding a Taliban tank?'
So, when comparing the treatment of David Hicks to the treatment of individuals caught in similar circumstances in previous wars, one arrives at the conclusion that his imprisonment is a shining example of humane behaviour on the part of the Americans. Those calling for an end to the formulation of military tribunals to try defendants like Hicks should be careful what they wish for. Looking forward, wars will be fought and traitors will be captured by their countrymen or their countrymen's allies. If this attempt by the Americans to try extraordinary defendants like Hicks using a formal military tribunal fails, the ad hoc variant will be reverted to. It's much less messy and such justice would easily pass unnoticed. Is this preferable?
I would argue that it is absolutely not. I value individual human life greatly. I even value the life of an immoral moron like Hicks, who was happy to ingratiate himself with men who think it godly to forbid female education and stone their "wayward" sisters, throw homosexuals off of tall buildings, dynamite the ancient relics of a "heretical" religion and ban music and sport. I'd rather Hicks in GITMO - awaiting what will likely be an imperfect and unprecedented trial - than his blindfolded, bullet-ridden body hidden in an unmarked grave somewhere in Afghanistan.
No! cry the his supporters. The other alternative is to simply let David go free - he has suffered enough. It's quite certain that our American allies would accede to such a request from the Australian government, however if he were to come back to Australia, it is well known that he cannot be charged with any offence. He would not face justice. Hicks's actions in Afghanistan were not illegal under Australian law when he committed them - although they would be if committed today. Consider the recollection of Hicks's activities in Afghanistan as told in this sympathetic 4 Corners piece. The Australian Federal Police interview records Hicks saying
We were under Taliban, basically.No need to say anything else. It's a fact that, legally speaking, he's in the clear as far as Australian law of 2001 is concerned. Using the common-sense definition, however, he committed treason against the Australian people by his own admission. He was under the command of the Taliban, who were at war with the Australian nation, amongst others. Hicks is escaping Australian justice by getting off on a technicality that represents a fault in Australian law at the time, rather than a lack of wrongdoing on his part - as measured by anyone with a half capacity of sense. So why not let the Americans charge him if they're able to? Yes, I agree that Hicks is being subjected to overly lengthy detention whilst waiting to face the tribunal. Am I worried that someone in Hicks's rather unique position is inconvenienced in such a way? Not overly. There are far more important travesties of justice going on in the world, and the reason his detention is so problematic is precisely because he wasn't subjected to the summary court martial and execution usually meted out to those in his position.
And Hicks certainly does not deserve freedom for a good long spell. Far from being released back into Australian society, Hicks richly deserves just and lengthy punishment if he is found guilty of fighting for the Taliban. In light of the realisation that Hicks might not be a very good man who allied himself with a truly evil regime, some on the Left are starting to wake up to fact that he could well be a bastard. By his own admission, Dave's been a bad, bad boy. Sorry - man. He was 26 at the time of his capture, so the 'wilful naive youth' defence many are attempting to field on his behalf falls somewhat short. That aside, the aforementioned lefties, claim that defending bastards against a lack of due process is one of the least gratifying but most necessary tasks of anyone concerned for the cause of liberty. This is bunk because, as mentioned above, there is no established due process for this kind of case beyond summary court martial and execution in situ.
Not that this fact will matter a tinker's cuss to the supporters of Mr Hicks; but then facts have never stemmed the tide of psuedo-righteousness coming from a Leftist in full Voltairean preach-mode. "He's a bastard but he still has rights" is catching on, however it rings pretty hollow to my cynical ears. Notwithstanding the above-argued fact that his current status is most accurately described as "extralegal", I don't think the Left cares at all about Hicks's crimes against the Australian and Afghani people. I believe they love him because he's a most useful weapon to use against their bitterest political enemies. And the Australian Labor Party can't get enough of Hicks for the same reason - he's becoming increasingly handy as a political wedge. The man is the favoured cause célèbre of the left and the ALP.
Now, I could be completely wrong - perhaps the Left and others aren't using Hicks as a political marionette. Perhaps they are genuinely concerned about a fair process for him. The best way to discover what the Left and others really think of Hicks will be evident when he returns to these shores, and that may not be so far away if the issue continues to gain traction here. If many of those demanding "Justice for David" actually deeply disapprove of his decision to enlist in the military of a fascist, barbaric regime that was also fighting against his own countrymen, I'm assuming a huge 'Welcome Home David' crowd won't assemble at the airport to greet such an immoral individual. And he won't be invited as a guest-of-honour speaker at various Green-Left, anti-globalisation and anti-war rallies around the country, surely. And the book he'll co-write detailing his ordeal and martyrdom will not shoot to the top of the bestseller lists, right? And there'll be no place on the Greens senate ticket for David Hicks; 7th century cult-admirer, supporter of female stoning, Taliban-boosting David Hicks?
We shall see.


35 Comments:
You wrote:
"Hicks was caught on the
battlefield as an enemy combatant."
Wrong: He was not caught on the battlefield. He was caught by
anti-Taliban government rebels (The Northern Alliance" while waiting for a cab and then sold to the Americans.
You wrote:
"He should be tried by the
standards of martial law."
That's better than an illegal military commision.
You wrote:
"A civilian criminal court hearing a case like Hicks's would have next to no chance of establishing guilt 'beyond reasonable doubt' due to the extraordinary nature of an active battlefield."
He wasn't ON any battlefield.
You wrote:
"For example, to be exonerated,
Our David would need an extremely good answer to a question like 'Mr
Hicks, why were you captured on the wrong side of the frontline,
apparently guarding a Taliban tank?'"
He was not captured guarding a tank. He was waiting for a cab.
Ray
That's better than an illegal military commision.
No, that *is* martial law. As is a summary trial and execution. What would you rather face, Ray?
Caught waiting for a cab? Eh???? Did he think he was on 5th Avenue?
By his own admission he went to Afghanistan to fight and conceded that he was under the command of the Taliban.
Next question, please.
And he was by definition on a battlefield because he was taken by an advancing army - BTW, I'm well aware it was the Northern Alliance.
Like I said, circumstantial evidence. Here's a man who underwent extensive military training with Islamic fundamentalist organisations. What was such a person doing in a war zone, apparently fighting for the opposition?
Ray said ..
That's better than an illegal military commision.
James Waterton said...
No, that *is* martial law. As is a summary trial and execution.
No, U.S. martial law is a just and legal system. Look it up.
Ray
James Waterton said...
And he was by definition on a battlefield because he was taken by an advancing army [...]
Hicks was not taken by an advancing army. He was sold to an invading army whose leaders had not declared war on the Afghan government of 6 years (The Taliban).
James Waterton said...
Like I said, circumstantial evidence. Here's a man who underwent extensive military training with Islamic fundamentalist organisations.
And that training was quite legal under Australian and Afghan law at all times before Hicks was sold.
Ray
Hicks was not taken by an advancing army.
Yes, he was. That advancing army was the Northern Alliance, who sold him to the Americans.
The Northern Alliance were obviously, demonstrably at war with the Taliban long before 9/11 and the international intervention - the Taliban overthrew those that consolidated to make up the Northern Alliance.
Remember, Ray, that the foreign forces in Afghanistan were - and continue to be - a UN coalition force.
No, U.S. martial law is a just and legal system. Look it up.
No, Ray, I think you'll find that martial law is rather more arbitrary than you think. Look it up. Or at least read a bit of military history.
[Ray]
Hicks was not taken by an advancing army.
[James]
Yes, he was. That advancing army was the Northern Alliance, who sold him to the Americans.
[Ray] The Northern Alliance were under Afghan law, not an army, but rebels.
[James]
The Northern Alliance were obviously, demonstrably at war with the Taliban long before 9/11 and the international intervention - the Taliban overthrew those that consolidated to make up the Northern Alliance.
[Ray]
The Northern Alliance was a rebel anti-government organization and therefore could not be "at war" (under international law).
[James]
Remember, Ray, that the foreign forces in Afghanistan were - and continue to be - a UN coalition force.
[Ray]
Despite that fact, they were illegally invading Afghanistan at the time, and the Taliban government troops and their supporters had a right under Afghan law to attempt to repel the invaders.
[Ray]
No, U.S. martial law is a just and legal system. Look it up.
[James]
No, Ray, I think you'll find that martial law is rather more arbitrary than you think. Look it up. Or at least read a bit of military history.
Have a look at Wikipedia for American martial law. That explains the real situation.
It seems it won't matter soon anyway because the U.S. Democrats are (as we speak) in the proces of trying to scrap the illegal military commissions that you are supporting.
Ray
The Northern Alliance were under Afghan law, not an army, but rebels.
Okay, so the Taliban were successful rebels when they overthrew the existing regime? And what does that make the Northern Alliance when they defeated the Taliban? Ray, you've got some serious double standards going on.
Despite that fact, they were illegally invading Afghanistan at the time
Please explain precisely how this action was illegal, citing the relevant clauses in international law. Good luck - I hope you realise that there are a million counter clauses that could justify invasion on human rights grounds according to international law.
Have a look at Wikipedia for American martial law.
How about you stop being lazy and start backing up your assertions with specifics, instead of referring me to broad and uncertain sources like Wikipedia?
And Ray, please explain to me - citing the relevant passages in what's described as international law - how a UN coalition force, backed with the authority of the UN Security Council, can illegally invade a country if the Security Council has voted in favour of this action.
[Ray]
The Northern Alliance were under Afghan law, not an army, but rebels.
[James]
Okay, so the Taliban were successful rebels when they overthrew the existing regime?
[Ray] The Taliban (or religious leaders) defeated 100,000 Soviets. They were not rebels because they were Afghan citizens who fought foreign invaders from 1979 onwards.
One of the first things they did after they took control of their country was reduce drug crops drastically.
[James]
And what does that make the Northern Alliance when they defeated the Taliban? Ray, you've got some serious double standards going on.
[Ray] The Northern Alliance didn't defeat the Taliban. It was mostly the U.S. and allied forces that did that - in a period of two weeks.
[Ray re: UN invasion]
Despite that fact, they were illegally invading Afghanistan at the time
[James]
Please explain precisely how this action was illegal, citing the relevant clauses in international law.
[Ray] All invasions of sovereign countries are illegal.
[Ray]
Have a look at Wikipedia for American martial law.
[James]
How about you stop being lazy and start backing up your assertions with specifics, instead of referring me to broad and uncertain sources like Wikipedia?
[Ray]
It will only take about 60 seconds to see the facts about U.S. martial law on Wikipedia.
Ray
[James]
And Ray, please explain to me - citing the relevant passages in what's described as international law - how a UN coalition force, backed with the authority of the UN Security Council, can illegally invade a country if the Security Council has voted in favour of this action.
[Ray]
There's no need. All invasions are illegal under the laws of all countries. What the U.N. decides doesn't make any invasion "legal".
If however the U.N. has a (legal)contract with a sovereign country to occupy that country if the contract is breached (as was the case between the UN and Iraq) then it's not an invasion but an agreement to occupy.
That's what should have occured in Iraq, but only if the contract was legal. As we know the U.S. didn't wait for that authorization.
Ray
No, the Soviets left Afghanistan in 1989. The Taliban took over in 1996 when they seized Kabul. What was going on between 1989 and 1996?
One of the first things they did after they took control of their country was reduce drug crops drastically.
This is what's called a Red Herring. These people also banned sport and music.
It was mostly the U.S. and allied forces that did that - in a period of two weeks.
I agree, but it was the Northern Alliance that captured David Hicks - and obviously they were spurred on by the UN-sponsored invasion. Incidentally, I don't see how this helps your initial protest regarding the plight of Hicks.
All invasions of sovereign countries are illegal.
Utter rubbish. There are several circumstances when invasion of a sovereign nation is acceptable in what passes as international law. And you have to accept the concept of international law to view any invasion as "illegal". If you accept the concept of an "illegal" invasion, you accept that there are several circumstances when invasion is legal. Genocide is one. There are many others.
It will only take about 60 seconds to see the facts about U.S. martial law on Wikipedia.
Not my job. Stop being lazy. You've made the accusation, it's up to you to prove your point. Why should I do it for you? By the way, you'll have to do a bit better than a Wikipedia link - though it's a good start.
This is my last post tonight, as I'm going to bed.
All invasions are illegal under the laws of all countries.
More garbage. So you're referring to the individual laws of various nations. What if a stronger nation legislates that it's legal to overrun a smaller nation which legislates that it's illegal for it to be overrun. Then the stronger nation conquers the smaller nation. Is that illegal? No, because the larger nation's laws have subjugated those of the smaller nation's via the larger nation conquering the smaller nation. There is plenty of history to back this laissez-faire view of international relations up. If you wish to cite otherwise, I'd be interested to see your examples to contrary.
Yes, I think you're safer with the post-1945 precedents.
[James]
No, the Soviets left Afghanistan in 1989. The Taliban took over in 1996 when they seized Kabul. What was going on between 1989 and 1996?
[Ray]
The locals were sorting it out between themselves between 92 and 96 and the religious leaders (The Taliban) won.
[Ray re: Taliban]
One of the first things they did after they took control of their country was reduce drug crops drastically.
[James]
This is what's called a Red Herring. These people also banned sport and music.
[Ray]
I think it's factual because it was totally against tehe Muslim law but I think they have reverted to the drug trade to survive the conflict.
[Ray]
It was mostly the U.S. and allied forces that did that - in a period of two weeks.
[James]
I agree, but it was the Northern Alliance that captured David Hicks - and obviously they were spurred on by the UN-sponsored invasion.
[Ray]
The Northern Alliance was nevertheless a rebel group that opposed the ruling government of Afghanistan.
[James]
Incidentally, I don't see how this helps your initial protest regarding the plight of Hicks.
[Ray]
It doesn't matter.
[Ray]
All invasions of sovereign countries are illegal.
Utter rubbish. There are several circumstances when invasion of a sovereign nation is acceptable in what passes as international law.
[Ray]
You are referring the the legality of *their* actions in their own countries. It is always illegal in the invaded country.
[James]
And you have to accept the concept of international law to view any invasion as "illegal". If you accept the concept of an "illegal" invasion, you accept that there are several circumstances when invasion is legal. Genocide is one. There are many others.
[Ray]
It is always illegal in the invaded country - irrespective of what is legal in other countries.
[Ray]
It will only take about 60 seconds to see the facts about U.S. martial law on Wikipedia.
[James]
Not my job. Stop being lazy. You've made the accusation, it's up to you to prove your point.
[Ray]
I made no accusation. I simply said that U.S. martial law is legal (unlike the new U.S. military commissions).
[James]
Why should I do it for you?
[Ray]
I need nothing done "for me". The idea was for you to see the facts about U.S. martial law.
Ray
[Ray]
All invasions are illegal under the laws of all countries.
[James]
More garbage. So you're referring to the individual laws of various nations.
[Ray]
They are the only laws that count in sovereign countries.
[James]
What if a stronger nation legislates that it's legal to overrun a smaller nation which legislates that it's illegal for it to be overrun. Then the stronger nation conquers the smaller nation. Is that illegal?
[Ray]
No, it's never legal to invade a sovereign country. Wordsmithing doesn't alter a thing.
[James]
No, because the larger nation's laws have subjugated those of the smaller nation's via the larger nation conquering the smaller nation.
[Ray]
No such thing exists. If howver the seat of government is occupied by an invading force, then it becomes the legal government through it's own declaration. That's waht happened with the Taliban - they took control of government and they were the law when Hicks was in their country.
[James]
There is plenty of history to back this laissez-faire view of international relations up. If you wish to cite otherwise, I'd be interested to see your examples to contrary.
[Ray]
There's no need to cite anything.
Ray
[Response to full text]
[James]
The alert reader will have noticed David Hicks's omission from the
above list. What? His plight cannot be overlooked, surely? Many
contend that the public should be deeply concerned about the nature
of the treatment dished out to Hicks, lest it befall them or their
children.
[Ray]
A large proportion of people are interested in justice for many
other reasons besides that.
[James]
That David Hicks is the victim of a grave miscarriage of justice is beyond question for many, and if one accepts this, then certainly his predicament is entirely worthy of the overwhelming media coverage his case receives.
[Ray]
This is not a matter of opinion. It is law. Hicks HAS been treated
unjustly and illegally according to Western law and that may include
war crimes.
[James]
However, I spurn the assumption of David Hicks's victimhood, and thus his case's media notoriety. There are a number of mitigating
circumstances that are not being considered when judging the
treatment of Hicks. When they - along with Hicks's current status -
are pondered, I contend that Hicks is being treated extremely well.
[Ray]
Even Hick's civilian lawyer has not been treated well, so it's
unlikely Hicks is being treated "extremely well"
[James]
If Hicks was a civilian who had committed a crime in that capacity,
then my voice would join those loudly decrying a travesty of justice whereby someone could be held without charge for several years by a foreign nation supposedly bound by the rule of law. However, Hicks was not a civilian.
[Ray]
We don't know what Hicks' legal status was when he was sold to the
Americans (a civilian or soldier). We know he was a civilian before
he left Australia but we don't know if the ruling government of
Afghanistan regarded him as a soldier or if Hicks requested or
recognised such a title.
[James]
He was a soldier - an Australian-born soldier - fighting under the flag of the Taliban, who were in turn fighting a UN-sponsored coalition force which included Australia.
[Ray]
And according to Afghan law, if he did assist the forces of the ruling government of Afghanistan during the several weeks in question in late 2001 it was probably legal. It was almost
certainly legal under Australian law because our government is not
claiming otherwise.
[James]
Whether he was actively taking part in a battle when apprehended is irrelevant.
[Ray]
He was not actively engaged in battle or any defense of the Afghan
government when he was captured. The official allegations make that
very clear.
[James]
He swelled the ranks of an enemy ranged against the forces of his
birth country. He is at least a traitor by the conventional
definition.
[Ray]
We have been told by our government that (as far as they know) Hicks broke no Australian law, so that automatically excludes
treason (being a traitor) and that therfore automatically excludes
"conventional definitions".
[James]
It is also most important to consider that, like all Taliban
soldiers, he was not wearing a uniform when captured - he had no
identifiable command.
[Ray]
It appears that the government of Afghanistan did not require any of
it's military to wear distinctive uniform, so whether or not Hicks
assisted the government forces, the uniform matter is a non-issue.
Afghan law (Taliban law) prevailed in Afghanistan until the moment
when the Taliban government was ceremonially replaced without
opposition - which was well after Hicks was captured.
[James]
This is a very important distinction. If a nation or coalition of nations captures one of its citizens on the battlefield manning the ranks of its opponent and is without identifiable command, it marks that individual as a spy.
[Ray]
The allegations clearly show that Hicks was not in the battlefield
manning the ranks in any shape or form, so the issue of no uniform
is irrelevant a once again and that automatically eliminates the
"spy" allegation. He was unarmed and travelling away from
Afghanistan.
[James]
Up until the recent Afghan campaign, standard operating procedure in these (very rare) circumstances has been that the accused appears before a summary court martial in situ, to face almost certain execution -
usually by a military firing squad.
[Ray]
In B-grade movies perhaps, but not in real life in the U.S. military
or the military of any of it's allies. What you are describing is
murder.
[James]
Now Hicks was probably not a
spy. But it is military convention to assume that fellow countrymen
caught behind enemy lines in mufti have been spying for the enemy.
[Ray]
Hicks was in fact a traveller when he was captured. The allegations
make that clear, so that speculation is irrelevant.
[James]
Those who think Guantanamo is rough justice should consider how
Hicks would have been treated if he were caught by the Allies in
similar circumstances in Nazi Germany.
[Ray]
Or by our allied forces.
Same thing - a POW who must be treated according to the various
Geneva conventions. Hicks has not been protected in that way since
he was handed over to the Americans. The Northern Alliance had no obligation to treat him according to the Geneva Conventions because they were not a signatory to them, nor were they qualified to do so, but the U.S. and it's allies had (and still have) an obligation to protect him under the G. Conventions but refuse to do so.
[James]
In this context, the Guantanamo Bay facility and the incarceration - as opposed to speedy execution - of David Hicks takes on an entirely new light.
[Ray]
Execution was never an option. They can only be carried out (in U.S. law) after a military trial *if* serious allegations are proved.
The allegations seem to indicate that Hicks could not even get one
day of community service or a ten dollar fine - when the facts and
the law are examined.
[James]
Of course, it is not ideal that one should wait five years or more for a trial.
[Ray]
His captors are saying the same thing, although they are blaming the victim for the delay because he brought it upon himself by
attempting to legally defend himself.
[James]
But Hicks is not facing an ordinary trial - on the contrary, he is a most unlikely legal pioneer. As mentioned, those of his kind captured in the past were executed in situ.
[Ray]
If the Australian public keep protesting about his further
mistreatment and the rigged military commission, Hicks will never
receive any trial - fair or otherwise. He will be released. My guess
is before the end of March this year.
Hicks may (or may not have) wanted to assist Muslim brothers in
Afghanistan against invading forces to proect the religious way of life in that country, but he had no aspirations of bringing down two governments - the Australia and American. If he does it would be wrong to blame him for that.
[James]
However, the Americans have shunned this rather bloody (but
hitherto universally practiced) convention in the case of Hicks,
opting to develop an entirely new process to try such extraordinary
cases.
[Ray]
It was impossible to try Hicks under the existing military justice
system.
[James]
This is a distinctly tricky task. English common law, the bedrock of the Anglospheric legal systems, evolved over hundreds of years. Compare with the construction of this new justice system for
people like Hicks - unsurprisingly still a 'work in progress' after
five years. Furthermore, this process - and thus Hicks's pre-trial detention - has been greatly lengthened by (later overturned)
judicial obstructions in US civilian courts, filed by those
purporting to support Guantanamo inmates like Hicks. Considering
these circumstances, is it surprising that it has taken so long for Hicks to come to trial?
[Ray]
I think Hicks was being held illegally for a few years before the Supreme Court application was made to rule on the illegality of the military commissions..
[James]
Many will wonder why it's necessary to construct this whole new legal edifice to try people like Hicks.
[Ray]
It's simple. He couldn't be convicted under any existing military, criminal or civil law.
[James]
Why not subject him to the rigours of a civilian court?
[Ray]
If recent claims are correct he could be tried in a Federal court
for one charge. That seems to be the only charge that has a remote
chance of sticking -- very remote, because it is American law and
Hicks was in Afghanistan where he was not subject to American law -
whether he breached it or not. In any case the mistreatment of him
and hearsay evidence and illegally gathered evidence and kidnapping
would probably ensure that such a trial was aborted as soon as it
began.
[James]
Simply, he does not qualify for access to civilian courts because he was not a civilian when he allegedly committed the crimes he's accused of. Hicks was caught on the battlefield as an enemy combatant.
[Ray]
American law has no bearing on the legal status of Afghan citizens
or residents or Australian tourists, so that's not an issue.
[James]
He should be tried by the standards of martial law.
[Ray]
They would have done that if they thought it would work. Same with a
Federal case.
The only thing they've got is this flakey "military commission"
which may soon be thrown out by the U.S. Democrats or alternatively
by the Supreme Court again.
[James]
There is a clear legal distinction between civilian and martial law - a distinction as clear as that of civil and criminal standards of evidence.
[Ray]
And they must be used properly - and probaly will - now that the cat
is out of the bag with the help of the Australian public and many
others.
Servicemen and women in the U.S. forces *agree* to be bound by the
rules and verdicts of Courts martial, but it can get a bit tricky when trying to prosecute others - especially in undeclared "wars" which are actually media beat-ups i.e. "War on terror" etc.
[James]
And this is as it should be; the
'fog of war' means that witnesses of crimes committed on the
battlefield are frequently deceased or difficult to locate.
[Ray]
In Hicks case there was no fog of war. He was waiting for a cab and
was attempting to travel out of Afghanistan.
[James]
When they are available to give evidence, their testimonies are
extremely susceptible to cross-examination, because of the confusion of warfare.
[Ray]
That is not an issue. Trials - even military trials must be
conducted according to the rules.
[James]
A civilian criminal court hearing a case like Hicks's would have next to no chance of establishing guilt 'beyond reasonable doubt' due to the extraordinary nature of an active battlefield. Yet crimes are committed in theatres of war - and they should be prosected as effectively as possible. Far greater emphasis must be placed on circumstantial evidence. For example, to be exonerated,
Our David would need an extremely good answer to a question like 'Mr
Hicks, why were you captured on the wrong side of the frontline,
apparently guarding a Taliban tank?'
[Ray]
That is not an issue. There is no allegation that he was captured
anywhere near a tank or any other piece of military equipment.
In any case, even if he HAD been captured with a rifle next to a
tank, it was not an offence in Australia or Afghanistan (unless the ruling Taliban Courts had said so).
[James]
So, when comparing the treatment of David Hicks to the treatment of
individuals caught in similar circumstances in previous wars, one
arrives at the conclusion that his imprisonment is a shining example
of humane behaviour on the part of the Americans.
[Ray]
Hicks is being tortured as we speak. I won't repeat the allegations of torture, apart from the admission that he does not see sunlight and he is subject to bright lights 24 hours a day.
[James]
Those calling for an end to the formulation of military tribunals to try defendants like Hicks should be careful what they wish for. Into the future, wars will be fought and traitors will be captured by their countrymen or their countrymen's allies. If this attempt by the Americans to try extraordinary defendants like Hicks using a formal military tribunal fails, the ad hoc variant will be reverted to.
It's much less messy and such justice would easily pass unnoticed.
Is this preferable?
[Ray]
The terrorists could be a lot more prolific and a lot more dangerous
if they know that barbaric treatment is enshrined in law.
[James]
I would argue that it is absolutely not. I value individual human life greatly. I even value the life of an immoral moron like Hicks, who was happy to ingratiate himself with men who think it godly to forbid female education and stone their "wayward" sisters, throw homosexuals off of tall buildings, dynamite the ancient relics of a "heretical" religion and ban music and sport. I'd rather Hicks in GITMO - awaiting what will likely be an imperfect and unprecedented trial - than his blindfolded, bullet-ridden body hidden in an unmarked grave somewhere in Afghanistan.
[Ray]
It would be better to hear the evidence in a fair trial first.
[James]
No! cry the his supporters. The other alternative is to simply let
David go free - he has suffered enough. It's quite certain that our
American allies would accede to such a request from the Australian
government, however if he were to come back to Australia, it is well
known that he cannot be charged with any offence. He would not face
justice.
[Ray]
He's already seen what the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled in relation
to the illegal military commissions, so it's quite possible that Hicks would be happy to have his day in court for any other allegations.
[James]
Hicks's actions in Afghanistan were not illegal under Australian law when he committed them - although they would be if
committed today.
[Ray]
So would capital punishment if it was being carried out by prison
warders and so would driving at 60km/h in some Australian back
streets. So would the sacking of all Commonwealth goverment women
workers when they got married. It's no longer legal.
Those things used to be legal but they are not any more.
[James]
Consider the recollection of Hicks's activities in Afghanistan as told in this sympathetic 4 Corners piece. The Australian Federal Police interview records Hicks saying
We were under Taliban, basically.
No need to say anything else. It's a fact that, legally speaking,
he's in the clear as far as Australian law of 2001 is concerned.
[Ray]
If that happened then he was saying that he was assisting the
ruling government of Afghanistan.
[James]
Using the common-sense definition, however, he committed treason
against the Australian people by his own admission. He was under the
command of the Taliban, who were at war with the Australian nation,
amongst others.
[Ray]
Australia was not at war with the Taliban government of Afghanistan.
No Western country declared war on them.
[James]
Hicks is escaping Australian justice by getting off on a technicality that represents a fault in Australian law at the
time, rather than a lack of wrongdoing on his part - as measured by anyone with a half capacity of sense.
[Ray]
Laws are full of 'technicalities'. If I remember correctly, Hicks
was reported to have said something about one or more of his
activities being "legal" - so one may reasonably assume that he
intended to stay within the law to a certain extent. That is not the
sign of a secretive terrorist who would harm any Australian, despite
wanting to assist the ruling Muslim government of Afghanistan.
Terrorists don't go around advertising illegal activities.
Personally, I wouldn't fear Hicks on the street for a moment when he
returns.
[James]
So why not let the Americans
charge him if they're able to? Yes, I agree that Hicks is subjected to overly lengthy detention whilst waiting to face the tribunal. Am I worried that someone in Hicks's rather unique position is inconvenienced in such a way? Not overly.
[Ray]
The Australian government and nearly all of our political parties
are concerned, and so is the U.S. government (both Rebublicans &
Democrats) and so are millions of citizens on every continent.
[James]
There are far more important travesties of justice going on in the world, and the reason his detention is so problematic is precisely because he wasn't subjected to the summary court martial and execution usually
meted out to those in his position.
[Ray]
That was quite impossible legally. It would have been murder.
[James]
And Hicks certainly does not deserve freedom for a good long spell.
[Ray]
Let the allegations be tested before deciding.
[James]
Far from being released back into Australian society, Hicks richly
deserves just and lengthy punishment if he is found guilty of
fighting for the Taliban.
[Ray]
It was legal to fight with the Taliban government forces of
Afghanistan IF Hicks or anyone else (in many countries) did that. I don't know if it was illegal for U.S. citizens to fight with them,
but that's not an issue for Hicks. It only became illegal to fight
with the Taliban after their government was overthrown and the new one was ceremonially installed. Hicks was in U.S. hands on that particular date.
[James]
In light of the realisation that Hicks might not be a very good man who allied himself with a truly evil regime,
[Ray]
Government - not regime. "Regime" is only media hype.
[James]
some on the Left are starting to wake up to fact that he
could well be a bastard. By his own admission, Dave's been a bad,
bad boy. Sorry - man. He was 26 at the time of his capture, so the
'wilful naive youth' defence many are attempting to field on his
behalf falls somewhat short.
[Ray]
Moral judgements have got nothing to do with Hicks current
situation.
We need only to focus on the law., but so far we can't even get THAT
right.
[James]
That aside, the aforementioned lefties, claim that defending bastards against a lack of due process is one of the least gratifying but most necessary tasks of anyone concerned
for the cause of liberty.
[Ray]
That's what the legal system is predominantly for.
[James]
This is bunk because, as mentioned above, there is no established due process for this kind of case beyond summary court martial and execution in situ.
[Ray]
That's not correct, and in any case no war was declared.
[James]
Not that this fact will matter a tinker's cuss to the supporters of
Mr Hicks; but then facts have never stemmed the tide of
psuedo-righteousness coming from a Leftist in full Voltairean
preach-mode. "He's a bastard but he still has rights" is catching
on, however it rings pretty hollow to my cynical ears.
[Ray]
A large percentage of protestors would have no problem at all with
the law proceeding fairly.
Lots of people live by principles. It's like their "personal
religion" and for many it's often a lot stronger than their
organised religion.
[James]
Notwithstanding the above-argued fact that his current status is
most accurately described as "extralegal", I don't think the Left cares at all about Hicks's crimes against the Australian and Afghani people.
[Ray]
We don't know if Hicks has committed a misdemeanor - let alone a crime.
American law was meaningless in Afghanistan when Hicks was there.
[James]
I believe they love him because he's a most useful weapon to
use against their bitterest political enemies. And the Australian Labor Party can't get enough of Hicks for the same reason - he's becoming increasingly handy as a political wedge. The man is the favoured cause célèbre of the left and the ALP.
[Ray]
Well our Prime Minister DID leave himself wide open on this matter.
He's had extremely good judgement on so many things, but somehow he
underestimated the real meaning of "a fair go" despite his otherwise very Australian ways.
[James]
Now, I could be completely wrong - perhaps the Left and others
aren't using Hicks as a political marionette. Perhaps they are
genuinely concerned about a fair process for him. The best way to
discover what the Left and others really think of Hicks will be
evident when he returns to these shores, and that may not be so far
away if the issue continues to gain traction here. If many of those demanding "Justice for David" actually deeply disapprove of his decision to enlist in the military of a fascist, barbaric regime that was also fighting against his own countrymen, I'm assuming a huge 'Welcome Home David' crowd won't assemble at the airport to greet such an immoral individual.
[Ray]
You are still judging a person who hasn't yet been tried - even
though you don't even have a *rumor* of him ever actually hurting anyone or anything while he was overseas.
[James]
And he won't be invited as a
guest-of-honour speaker at various Green-Left, anti-globalisation
and anti-war rallies around the country, surely.
[Ray]
Not until he partially recovers from the massive trauma, or perhaps not until he successfully sues a few people or legal entities for damages or war crimes.
[James]
And the book he'll co-write detailing his ordeal and martrydom will
not shoot to the
top of the bestseller lists, right? And there'll be no place on the
Greens senate ticket for David Hicks; 7th century cult-admirer,
supporter of female stoning, Taliban-boosting David Hicks?
[Ray]
We should be following the example of the Prime Minister and be be
*friendly* towards Muslims, and not talk about their religion in
ways like that. Have you got any idea how valuable it is if the
dominant society shows genuine understanding and tolerance of
others' differences - even if we want to "educate" them about our
"superior" ways?
I still vividly remmember the TV footage of Howard visiting a Mosque a few years and saying something to the effect of "Give these guys a fair go". When I saw it it said to myself "Bloody great - that ONE action will make a hell of a difference and make Australia safer and Muslims a bit less uncomfortable".
Ray
Oh dear,
The Taliban was created and supported by Pakistan. They came out of the Pakistani madrassas and were not a native home grown Afghani product.
Afghanistan, under the Taliban government, in aiding, abetting and protecting al Quada before and after 9/11, committed an act of war against the United States to which the US, in concert with friends, allies and even putative enemies, reacted in self defense.
I am not aware of any provisions in international law which render national self defense illegal, nor would I have any respect for any such provisions if they do exist.
Whether the United States declared war or not is irrelevant, without itself making any declaration Afghanistan initiated the war, and the rest of the world responded to the Afghan initiative.
Hmmm.
What happened to your Valentine messages?
I think you're exactly right, James - bravo! There seems to be this view that either Hicks is a civilian or a conventional soldier, as if because that dichotomy set up by the Geneva Convention is somehow the only word that will ever be written on the subject, the only 2 categories there will ever be. Again, as you point out, pretending that the Geneva Convention sprang to life, fully formed, at the dawn of time, or was handed down with the 10 Commandments, rather than developed over time with much difficulty. And "irregular" forces have been hiding in the interstices between these 2 categories ever since, taking advantage of the fact that the law (as developed until then) only recognised one or the other. Of course, most regular forces dealt with this by the simple expediant you describe (i.e. shooting them out of hand), as much to protect the rights of their own POW's and preserve the Convention, as anything else.
But that couldn't go on, so someone has to have the courage and fortitude to forge a revised process and a new legal paradigm, so that civilised societies can deal correctly with these scumbags (oops, "freedom fighters"). This is a necesary step, and if the only person that suffers is a lowlife like Hicks, it will be asmall price to pay for this resolution.
Precedent comes from somewhere - ask our High Court. What do that think Mabo and all the subsequent legal wrangling have been, but another case of the same thing?
Chris Harper said...
Oh dear,
The Taliban was created and supported by Pakistan. They came out of the Pakistani madrassas and were not a native home grown Afghani product.
[Ray] Forty million Pashtuns = The strongest part of Taliban. They were the notorious fighters who ejected the British from Afghanistan and also the Soviets and Alexander the Great and probably many others.
They move around a lot, so the Pakistan factor is meaningless in that neck of the woods.
[Chris] Afghanistan, under the Taliban government, in aiding, abetting and protecting al Quada before and after 9/11, committed an act of war against the United States to which the US, in concert with friends, allies and even putative enemies, reacted in self defense.
I am not aware of any provisions in international law which render national self defense illegal, nor would I have any respect for any such provisions if they do exist.
[Ray] No one in the American Administration alleged any "act of war" by Afghanistan. Their official line was "We order you to capture and hand over Bin Laden (due to our suspicion of terrorism) or we will invade and occupy your country".
So, without an allegation of any "act of war" it is impossible to claim "self defence" - thus rendering the invasion illegal under American, Afghan and International law.
[Chris] Whether the United States declared war or not is irrelevant, without itself making any declaration Afghanistan initiated the war, and the rest of the world responded to the Afghan initiative.
[Ray] If the U.S. had perceived Afghanistan as having committed an act of war it should have said so.
They only wanted to capture Bin Laden and had no other gripes with Afghanistan (or so they said).
I do wonder though if they were telling the truth because plans to invade Afghanistan were being made in January 2001 -- 8 months before the "excuse to attack" Afghanistan arose on Sept 11th.
Ray
Anonymous said...
I think you're exactly right, James - bravo! There seems to be this view that either Hicks is a civilian or a conventional soldier, as if because that dichotomy set up by the Geneva Convention is somehow the only word that will ever be written on the subject, the only 2 categories there will ever be.
[Ray] No, the Geneva Conventions have a large array of categories - not two.
[Anonymous] Again, as you point out, pretending that the Geneva Convention sprang to life, fully formed, at the dawn of time, or was handed down with the 10 Commandments, rather than developed over time with much difficulty. And "irregular" forces have been hiding in the interstices between these 2 categories ever since, taking advantage of the fact that the law (as developed until then) only recognised one or the other.
[Ray] That's just an urban myth. Have a look at the Geneva Conventions.
[Anonymous] Of course, most regular forces dealt with this by the simple expediant you describe (i.e. shooting them out of hand), as much to protect the rights of their own POW's and preserve the Convention, as anything else.
[Ray] It's a bit hard to do that sort of thing in a main street when an unarmed bloke is waiting for a cab.
[Anonymous] But that couldn't go on, so someone has to have the courage and fortitude to forge a revised process and a new legal paradigm, so that civilised societies can deal correctly with these scumbags (oops, "freedom fighters"). This is a necesary step, and if the only person that suffers is a lowlife like Hicks, it will be asmall price to pay for this resolution.
[Ray] I wonder if they'll try and flog these new concepts at future Geneva Conventions, when the whole world sees them as atrocities? That would be a very neat smoke and mirrors trick.
[Anonymous] Precedent comes from somewhere - ask our High Court. What do that think Mabo and all the subsequent legal wrangling have been, but another case of the same thing?
[Ray] In reality the High Court has no jurisdiction over the Australian continent and some of the islands surrounding it, or over indigenous people. It only has jurisdiction over it's own people until a treaty is arranged.
Ray
Ray, it's quite obvious that you're making it up as you go along. Response to follow.
This is not a matter of opinion. It is law. Hicks HAS been treated unjustly and illegally according to Western law
Which specific law are you referring to? Didn’t realise there was a “Western” law code.
so it's unlikely Hicks is being treated "extremely well"
I meant “extremely well” relative to being summarily tried and executed.
We don't know what Hicks' legal status was when he was sold to the Americans (a civilian or soldier)
You claim to know below. You assert he’s a traveller. At least you concede that there’s a case to be answered regarding Hicks’s status on the battlefield – at the bare minimum, the circumstantial evidence is very strong that he was a combatant in Afghanistan
He was not actively engaged in battle or any defense of the Afghan government when he was captured..
I don’t know why you felt the need to point this out – the passage of text you responded to with this clearly stated it was irrelevant whether he was actively fighting when captured or not.
so that automatically excludes treason (being a traitor) and that therfore automatically excludes "conventional definitions".
Hicks is a traitor. The fact he can’t be charged with treason represents a fault in our legal system as it was in 2001. If he repeated his crimes today he could be charged under Australian law.
the uniform matter is a non-issue.
No, Ray, the uniform matter is a BIG issue. To be treated as soldiers, combatants must be in uniform. The Geneva Convention is very clear about this. By not insisting its troops wear uniforms or any identifying mark, the Taliban govt was relying solely on the good conduct of the enemy, free from any overarching compact such as the Geneva Conventions.
The allegations clearly show that Hicks was not in the battlefield manning the ranks in any shape or form
Which allegations? Please be specific, Ray. I want to know where and at what point these allegations “clearly show” what you claim.
In B-grade movies perhaps, but not in real life in the U.S. military or the military of any of it's allies. What you are describing is murder.
Wrong, Ray. It’s actually standard operating procedure – it just hasn’t happened very often in recent times so you haven’t heard about it. And it’s no more murder than one soldier killing another on the battlefield. That is accepted practice in a time of war. So is executing spies.
Hicks was in fact a traveller when he was captured. The allegations make that clear,
A traveller?? And your proof of this is…? Even his most sympathetic supporters concede David was far from a traveller. Once again, please direct me to the point in the “allegations” where his “traveller” status is made clear.
Same thing - a POW who must be treated according to the various Geneva Conventions… but the U.S. and it's allies had (and still have) an obligation to protect him under the G. Conventions but refuse to do so.
You’re making this up, Ray. I don’t think you actually know what you’re talking about. Anyway, this is where the uniform bit comes into play. Check the Third Convention on the definition of POWs – article 4.1.2. Hicks doesn’t meet the criteria. The Americans do not have an obligation to protect Hicks under the Geneva Convention because he doesn’t meet the GC definition of a POW. QED.
They can only be carried out (in U.S. law) after a military trial *if* serious allegations are proved.
Do you understand how martial law works? A trial can be held in situ, Ray. On the battlefield. Doesn’t take long.
He will be released. My guess is before the end of March this year.
And if that occurred it would be a travesty of justice.
It was impossible to try Hicks under the existing military justice system.
Not with an ad hoc trial that usually deals with people like Hicks. The Americans have shunned this convention, however, opting to build a new system to try people like Hicks. It’s a lengthy process.
I think Hicks was being held illegally for a few years before the Supreme Court application was made to rule on the illegality of the military commissions.
Not the point. The point is that his incarceration has been greatly lengthened by activity in US civilian courts. If it wasn’t for this, he would have been charged and faced trial by now.
American law has no bearing on the legal status of Afghan citizens or residents or Australian tourists, so that's not an issue.
Well, he’s not being tried under American civil law, is he?
They would have done that if they thought it would work.
No, they are. What do you think the military commission is?
And they must be used properly
Define “properly”. Please give an explanation, citing relevant clauses in the law/s germaine to your assertion, of how the military commission is “improper”.
In Hicks case there was no fog of war. He was waiting for a cab and was attempting to travel out of Afghanistan.
Prove it. You can’t. Stop guessing, Ray. Honestly, you’ll say anything to portray Hicks as a poor, innocent victim of circumstance. Not buying it.
even military trials must be conducted according to the rules.
Which rules?
There is no allegation
What allegations are you referring to?
Hicks is being tortured as we speak.
Prove it.
apart from the admission that he does not see sunlight and he is subject to bright lights 24 hours a day.
Even if this was true – and I don’t necessarily accept it is – the conditions you describe are not torture. Enough with the hyperbole.
Those things used to be legal but they are not any more.
Yes, and that’s why it’s not proper to try Hicks retrospectively in Australia. If the Americans can charge him, great. Hicks has committed crimes, and he avoided being charged here because the law wasn’t strong enough to protect Australian citizens from people like him. This has been rectified, thankfully, and it’s good that one of our closest allies is able to charge him at a time our legal system has been found to be wanting.
If that happened then he was saying that he was assisting the ruling government of Afghanistan.
That’s your interpretation, and it’s a ridiculously benign one. As mentioned earlier, even his staunchest supporters concede he was in Afghanistan to make war. You are the only person I’ve seen who suggests that Hicks was there as some kind of tourist. What was he doing on the battlefield? Why was he in Afghanistan, armed? We’re talking about a guy with a history of training with, and supporting the cause of, Islamic fundamentalists. Join the dots, Ray. It’s not rocket science.
That was quite impossible legally. It would have been murder. (re summary trial and execution of spies)
You keep saying that, but you’re wrong. Read up on your military history.
Let the allegations be tested before deciding.
They will. At the military commission. Soon.
It was legal to fight with the Taliban government forces of Afghanistan IF Hicks or anyone else (in many countries) did that. I don't know if it was illegal for U.S. citizens to fight with them, but that's not an issue for Hicks.
Please cite the law/s that support your claim.
American law was meaningless in Afghanistan when Hicks was there.
Civil law, perhaps. Martial law, you’re demonstrably wrong. That’s why he is where he is.
Not until he partially recovers from the massive trauma
More hyperbole. Prove that he’s suffering from “massive trauma”.
I am not aware of any provisions in international law which render national self defense illegal
You’re always exhorting international law (except when it doesn’t favour David Hicks’s circumstances), yet you’re awfully short on specifics. You need to be if you want to be taken seriously.
I do wonder though if they were telling the truth because plans to invade Afghanistan were being made in January 2001 -- 8 months before the "excuse to attack" Afghanistan arose on Sept 11th.
Getting a bit Twilight Zone here, Ray. Your conspiracy theory doesn’t have legs, however. After Rumsfeld was made Secretary of Defence, he ordered the rewriting (modernising) of all the invasion plan scenarios the Pentagon had formulated over the years. Yes, this included Iraq’s and Afghanistan’s. And all the others. And yep, that probably would have taken place in January 2001 and onwards – it was a massive project. Gotta stop reading those conspiracy theories, Ray. They’re full of quarter truths and outright lies and you using them does your credibility severe damage.
No, the Geneva Conventions have a large array of categories - not two.
Um, think Anon’s point went over your head a bit there, Ray. Read the relevant paragraph a little more carefully.
That's just an urban myth. (re. the summary trial and execution of people like Hicks)
Prove it. Stop pissing in the wind, Ray. You really don’t know what you’re talking about if you reckon that’s just an “urban myth”.
Have a look at the Geneva Conventions.
You really, really should.
It's a bit hard to do that sort of thing in a main street when an unarmed bloke is waiting for a cab.
More wind-pissing. Please provide evidence for this assertion.
Ray, you need to start getting a LOT more specific when citing international and national law to justify your points. Otherwise you have no authority whatsoever.
James Waterton said...
>>[Ray] This is not a matter of opinion. It is law. Hicks HAS been treated unjustly and illegally according to Western law
[James] Which specific law are you referring to? Didn’t realise there was a “Western” law code.
[Ray] Well you should. Start with Magna Carta
>>[Ray] so it's unlikely Hicks is being treated "extremely well"
[James] I meant “extremely well” relative to being summarily tried and executed.
[Ray] A silly comparison.
>>[Ray] We don't know what Hicks' legal status was when he was sold to the Americans (a civilian or soldier)
[James] You claim to know below.
[Ray] I said "We do NOT know"
[James] You assert he’s a traveller.
[Ray] He was in fact a traveller at the time of capture. The allegations show it.
[James] At least you concede that there’s a case to be answered regarding Hicks’s status on the battlefield – at the bare minimum, the circumstantial evidence is very strong that he was a combatant in Afghanistan
[Ray] There is no case to answer until at least one lucid charge is made. Being a combatant in Afghanistan was not a breach of ANY law anywhere.
>>[Ray] so that automatically excludes treason (being a traitor) and that therfore automatically excludes "conventional definitions".
[James] Hicks is a traitor. The fact he can’t be charged with treason represents a fault in our legal system as it was in 2001. If he repeated his crimes today he could be charged under Australian law.
[Ray] Hicks is most certainly NOT a traitor. No declaration of war was made and no enemy of Australia was Proclaimed. Without either of those things, treason is impossible.
>>[Ray] the uniform matter is a non-issue.
[James] No, Ray, the uniform matter is a BIG issue. To be treated as soldiers, combatants must be in uniform. The Geneva Convention is very clear about this. By not insisting its troops wear uniforms or any identifying mark, the Taliban govt was relying solely on the good conduct of the enemy, free from any overarching compact such as the Geneva Conventions.
[Ray] He was not a troop when captured. He was an unarmed traveller.
>>[Ray] The allegations clearly show that Hicks was not in the battlefield manning the ranks in any shape or form
[James] Which allegations? Please be specific, Ray. I want to know where and at what point these allegations “clearly show” what you claim.
[Ray] Have a look on the net for the official PDF files which contains the old and new allegations. They are more like a poorly written story than allegations, but officially they're called allegations until they can write up some real ones.
------
>>[Ray] In B-grade movies perhaps, but not in real life in the U.S. military or the military of any of it's allies. What you are describing is murder.
[James] Wrong, Ray. It’s actually standard operating procedure – it just hasn’t happened very often in recent times so you haven’t heard about it. And it’s no more murder than one soldier killing another on the battlefield. That is accepted practice in a time of war. So is executing spies.
[Ray] Killing unarmed travellers leaving Afghanistan is murder. It is not standard practice at all.
----
>>[Ray] Hicks was in fact a traveller when he was captured. The allegations make that clear,
[James] A traveller?? And your proof of this is…? Even his most sympathetic supporters concede David was far from a traveller. Once again, please direct me to the point in the “allegations” where his “traveller” status is made clear.
[Ray] He was an unarmed traveller when captured. You seem to be confusing potential execution in combat with caapturing a traveller who MIGHT have been in combat at some other time. Big difference.
--
>>[Ray] Same thing - a POW who must be treated according to the various Geneva Conventions… but the U.S. and it's allies had (and still have) an obligation to protect him under the G. Conventions but refuse to do so.
[James] You’re making this up, Ray. I don’t think you actually know what you’re talking about.
[Ray] Do you think it's wise to mention in this public forum what's REALLY GOING ON in Afghanistan in regard to the treatment of prisoners by U.S. forces?
---
[Ray] Hicks was not a combatant when captured. He was an unarmed traveller.
They can only be carried out (in U.S. law) after a military trial *if* serious allegations are proved.
[James] Do you understand how martial law works? A trial can be held in situ, Ray. On the battlefield. Doesn’t take long.
[Ray] Hicks was not ON any battlefield when captured. He was an unarmed traveller.
--------
>>[Ray] He will be released. My guess is before the end of March this year.
[James] And if that occurred it would be a travesty of justice.
[Ray] The travesty of justice has already occurred - Kidnapping, Torture, No Trial.
>>[Ray] It was impossible to try Hicks under the existing military justice system.
Not with an ad hoc trial that usually deals with people like Hicks. The Americans have shunned this convention, however, opting to build a new system to try people like Hicks. It’s a lengthy process.
[Ray] That system cannot be used for unarmed travellers.
I think Hicks was being held illegally for a few years before the Supreme Court application was made to rule on the illegality of the military commissions.
Not the point. The point is that his incarceration has been greatly lengthened by activity in US civilian courts. If it wasn’t for this, he would have been charged and faced trial by now.
[Ray] Probably, but it will never happen.
American law has no bearing on the legal status of Afghan citizens or residents or Australian tourists, so that's not an issue.
Well, he’s not being tried under American civil law, is he?
[Ray] He won't be tried under ANY law.
They would have done that if they thought it would work.
No, they are. What do you think the military commission is?
[Ray] The same as the Supreme Court says it was - an illegal con.
And they must be used properly
Define “properly”. Please give an explanation, citing relevant clauses in the law/s germaine to your assertion, of how the military commission is “improper”.
[Ray] Read what the Supreme Court said. They said it better than I ever could.
In Hicks case there was no fog of war. He was waiting for a cab and was attempting to travel out of Afghanistan.
Prove it. You can’t. Stop guessing, Ray. Honestly, you’ll say anything to portray Hicks as a poor, innocent victim of circumstance. Not buying it.
[Ray] Read the charges - not WIKIPEDIA (it has incorrect information)
even military trials must be conducted according to the rules.
Which rules?
[Ray] You know.
Hicks is being tortured as we speak.
Prove it.
[Ray] Copious quantities of evidence exist in the statements by U.S. officials.
apart from the admission that he does not see sunlight and he is subject to bright lights 24 hours a day.
Even if this was true – and I don’t necessarily accept it is – the conditions you describe are not torture. Enough with the hyperbole.
[Ray] It is torture. So is the psychological stuff they SAY they do.
Those things used to be legal but they are not any more.
Yes, and that’s why it’s not proper to try Hicks retrospectively in Australia.
[Ray] Yes, that idea is quite absurd.
[James] If the Americans can charge him, great. Hicks has committed crimes,
[Ray] Hicks is innocent until proven guilty.
[James] and he avoided being charged here because the law wasn’t strong enough to protect Australian citizens from people like him.
[Ray] Australian citizens were not at risk.
[James] This has been rectified, thankfully, and it’s good that one of our closest allies is able to charge him at a time our legal system has been found to be wanting.
[Ray] They can charge what they want, but they cannot convict.
-----
>>[Ray] If that happened then he was saying that he was assisting the ruling government of Afghanistan.
[James] That’s your interpretation, and it’s a ridiculously benign one. As mentioned earlier, even his staunchest supporters concede he was in Afghanistan to make war. You are the only person I’ve seen who suggests that Hicks was there as some kind of tourist.
[Ray] I didn't SAY he was a tourist - YOU are the only one who's said that. I simply said he was an unarmed traveller when captured.
[James] What was he doing on the battlefield? Why was he in Afghanistan, armed? We’re talking about a guy with a history of training with, and supporting the cause of, Islamic fundamentalists. Join the dots, Ray. It’s not rocket science.
[Ray] You would have to ask him if he gets into the witness box.
--------
>>[Ray] That was quite impossible legally. It would have been murder. (re summary trial and execution of spies)
[James] You keep saying that, but you’re wrong. Read up on your military history.
[Ray] You are not allowed to shoot unarmed travellers who you THINK deserve shooting.
>>[Ray] Let the allegations be tested before deciding.
[James] They will. At the military commission. Soon.
[Ray] Not now. The Australian public has over-ruled the incompetent U.S. prosecutors.
>>[Ray] It was legal to fight with the Taliban government forces of Afghanistan IF Hicks or anyone else (in many countries) did that. I don't know if it was illegal for U.S. citizens to fight with them, but that's not an issue for Hicks.
[James] Please cite the law/s that support your claim.
[Ray] No need. It's not an issue in his trial.
>>[Ray] American law was meaningless in Afghanistan when Hicks was there.
[James] Civil law, perhaps. Martial law, you’re demonstrably wrong. That’s why he is where he is.
[Ray] Hicks was a traveller when captured, so none of that stuff applies.
>>[Ray] Not until he partially recovers from the massive trauma
[James] More hyperbole. Prove that he’s suffering from “massive trauma”.
[Ray] No need. It's got nothing to do with the allegations.
>>[Ray] I am not aware of any provisions in international law which render national self defense illegal
[James] You’re always exhorting international law (except when it doesn’t favour David Hicks’s circumstances), yet you’re awfully short on specifics. You need to be if you want to be taken seriously.
[Ray] It's not an issue.
>>[Ray] I do wonder though if they were telling the truth because plans to invade Afghanistan were being made in January 2001 -- 8 months before the "excuse to attack" Afghanistan arose on Sept 11th.
[James] Getting a bit Twilight Zone here, Ray. Your conspiracy theory doesn’t have legs, however. After Rumsfeld was made Secretary of Defence, he ordered the rewriting (modernising) of all the invasion plan scenarios the Pentagon had formulated over the years. Yes, this included Iraq’s and Afghanistan’s.
[Ray] It could easily have been proven if it was relevant to a trial, but it's not.
>>[Ray] It's a bit hard to do that sort of thing in a main street when an unarmed bloke is waiting for a cab.
[James] More wind-pissing. Please provide evidence for this assertion.
[Ray] See the allegations.
Ray
Ray, your whole argument is based upon some "allegations" that you yourself won't/can't dig up. You tell me to do it. No. Stop being so lazy - it's not up to me to unearth the basis of your argument for you.
Your whole case rests on the fact you (unlike pretty much everyone else) claim Hicks was but a mere traveller, and offer some fabled "allegations" (made by whom, one wonders) as "proof". Nevertheless, you haven't been able a link to these "allegations", thus your assertions are currently worthless. You can rectify this by seeking them out right now and presenting them here. If you aren't willing to do that, then please bugger off and stop wasting my time.
[James] Ray, your whole argument is based upon some "allegations" that you yourself won't/can't dig up. You tell me to do it. No. Stop being so lazy - it's not up to me to unearth the basis of your argument for you.
[James] Your whole case rests on the fact you (unlike pretty much everyone else) claim Hicks was but a mere traveller,
[Ray] Read the text more carefully. YOU are the one who is repeatedly saying Hicks was a mere traveller and I am repeatedly telling you that he was NOT a mere traveller, but he was a traveller when captured - and not involved with anything else (subject to any allegations) in the previous weeks.
[James] Nevertheless, you haven't been able a link to these "allegations", thus your assertions are currently worthless. You can rectify this by seeking them out right now and presenting them here. If you aren't willing to do that, then please bugger off and stop wasting my time.
[Ray] Heaps of your (personal) allegations have been contested in this thread, and some have been shown to be quite wrong, but strangley you fail to respond to any of them. That's gotta be good I suppose.
If you have anything to discuss - discuss it, instead of making vague allegations about my supposed allegations and who's going to look up what.
You won't get anywhere until you read both sets of the official allegations and start discussing them.
Find them and present them, and I'll demolish them one at a time for you.
Ray
and some have been shown to be quite wrong
Such as? There are plenty of things that you said that I didn't respond to, simply because you appear to be so confused that I thought it expedient to drop the matter and continue on with the central point(s). For example, there were several rebuttals I made to points you presented. You responded to these rebuttals with a glib "it's not an issue", which makes one wonder why you mentioned the points in the first place.
You won't get anywhere until you read both sets of the official allegations and start discussing them.
Find them and present them
No, Ray! You're the one using these allegations as pieces of evidence. Present them for examination, or walk away. You need to link to these allegations, and then within them point out exactly where
The allegations show
that
[H]e was in fact a traveller at the time of capture
If you're unable to do this, your whole argument is worthless. And stop telling me to do your dirty work for you. This may come as a profound shock to you, Ray, but it's not my job to make your argument for you. If you're going to find these allegations you rely so heavily on and contextualise your argument with them, then go and do so. If you're not willing to do this, then I think it perfectly reasonable to dismiss your entire argument out of hand, and in that case - as I said before - please bugger off and stop wasting my time.
One of your first allegations was:
"He swelled the ranks of an enemy ranged against the forces of his birth country."
If you had read the official allegations and news reports you would know that there was no possibility of Hicks swelling the ranks of ANY enemy of Australia for TWO reasons:
(1) Hicks was captured before the Australian military invaded Afghanistan, and
(2) Hicks was captured before Australia declared any enemy in that neck of the woods.
Ray
You don't really understand how coalitions work, do you?
"official allegations"
Still waiting for you to present these and point out the relevant sections that support your contentions. Last chance, Ray.
[James]
You don't really understand how coalitions work, do you?
[Ray] Yes, to a minor extent, but the Crimes Act dictates what Treason is - not alliances or "coalitions'" agreements, and treason could not occur before Hicks' capture because no declatarion of war was made OR no Proclamation of the enemy was made.
Ray
Still no "official allegations", Ray?
Okay, I'm sick of waiting for you to substantiate your claims. Bugger off and stop wasting my time.
Where do you find these guys, James?
Good question, Mr Wickstein. I end up feeling stupid for engaging them.
Early in this thread I wrote
"If the Australian public keep protesting about his further
mistreatment and the rigged military commission, Hicks will never receive any trial - fair or otherwise. He will be released. My guess is before the end of March this year."
~~~~~~~~~~~~
I still hold to that.
Ray
Yes, I admire your tenacious patience, James, but it's wasted.
Good blog (correction, great blog).
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